The trilateral meeting in Geneva: The Iranian and American delegations, headed by Javad Zarif and John Kerry, meet; with EU’s Lady Ashton present. Saturday, 9 November 2013.
It would be hilarious if Iranians over-haggle their way to no deal, followed next week by a near unanimous Congressional bill imposing even more crippling sanctions on Iran and preventing the President from lifting them. Iranians' tendency to lie, in this case to delude themselves that they have any power or leverage or authority, hurts themselves ultimately.
You forget that US is only one of the 5+1 members. Any further unilateral sanction by US will complicate the matter and may even bring disunity to the group to a point where some members may find justification in relaxing the sanction. A tit-for -tat response by IRI cannot be ruled out. They could easily double the number of centrifuges in Fordo underground complex and stop converting their 20% enriched stockpile to fuel rods.
I wouldn't call it "hilarious", but rather "sad" or "disastrous" for the ordinary Iranian people already suffering tremendously both because of their own government's irresponsibility, selfishness and economic mismanagement, AND the existing unfair and illegal, non-internally recognized and unilateral sanctions regime affecting them and not a single one of the Arazadeh and/or their Akhound parents speeding with American cars in northern Tehran (or in vacation in Europe/USA).
But considering your style, I feel that a total failure of the ongoing negotiations and an resulting even greater ruin of the country for generations to come would prove joyful to you ! "hilarious" would be an odd word to describe such an outcome for anyone living and/or caring about Iran as a country (and not as a regime).
That would almost make me believe you'd be sad if a deal ultimately gets clinched at the last minute no matter how !!
"reader" might or might not live in Iran or the US, that doesn't make his/her analysis that flawed or far from reality.
Nuclearyahoo is extremly worried, shaking in fear over what may come - an agreement that leads to Iran's retainment of the Nuclear Fuel Cycle in conjunction with a comprehensive inspection routine, by the IAEA, in a new framework agreed upon by P5+1 and Iran.
Iran will escape military aggression against its facilites which will remain intact.
The West will be pleased and Iran get to keep its lawful right to enrich Uranium for peaceful purposes.
Eventually Iran stands to gain the most out of all concerned parties, and Iran will be standing as the Winner vis-a-vis the Zionist entity.
silly and baseless comment. Iran is at the negotiating table because of Iran's lies, deceits and non-compliance..... and Iran isn't going to get any deal that doesn't preclude Iran from operating ANY nuclear facilities not fully inspected and controlled by the IAEA and the UN Security Council.
sanctions are going to remain in place and the Iranian economy will be throttled until Iran submits to international oversite.
Agreed, Iranians are paying the price for a stubborn and corrupt elite doing everything within its power to fortify its future holding the reigns of the oil-rich country as long as they can, that is entirely right and I couldn't agree more.
But what about Bibi's growing fury, fuming at any real prospect for that crisis to eventually end ? what's in it for him of so displeasing, that's an interesting question to dig, besides what we already know of the Iranian regime. The falling popularity of the man and the image of his country in the eyes of the average Iranian (would he be pro-regime, neutral or opponent nowadays) would be one way of gauging the reality perceived behind the supposedly legitimate existential concerns Mr. Netanyahu has so far so brilliantly used against Iran, thanks to his mate Ahmadinejad doing the anti-Semite work his daily business for 8 years.
He will have to accept that one day the world will turn its eyes on his own unpunished and ongoing abuses on the land he governs, no matter the final outcomes of these negotiations in Geneva or distant future sessions, he would gain by sitting back, relaxing, distancing from his obsession with the Iranian threat and starting thinking about the many walls (sarcasm intended here) there are between him and a negotiated, decent peace deal with he Palestinians. Oh wait, he has never been elected for that nor has ever willed it, he is just another Israeli fascist using the 1940s holocaust to do perform smaller-scale organized murder in modern times on a regular basis, Gaza or Jenine style. And soon the West Bank too, with a record number of high-rise buildings marked for demolition two days ago. Life is going to become many-folds funnier in the weeks and months to come for happy Palestinians. Oh but that's alright because Iran is a dictatorship so that's a non-issue, right ?
Iran's crimes are not excused by pointing to Israel's crimes..........and vice versa.
and by the way, Netanyahu's shrill and silly cries about Iran aren't a crime nor really a problem. his rhetoric about Iran is far more restrained than is the rhetoric coming from Iran's Ayatollahs and presidents concerning Israel.
further, any time you want to compare the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government since 1979 with the number of Iranians killed by the Iranian government since then, you might learn a thing or two
Anonymous November 9, 2013 at 2:33 PM You do not know what you are talking about,iran is in full compliance with its npt obligations,its nuclear sites are inspected and monitored and the iaea has certified that there has been no diversion of nuclear material,the idea that iran would allow these sites to be controlled by the iaea or the security council is utterly laughable and only shows your utter ignorance of the whole issue.Before there can be any deal the west will have to acknowledge irans nuclear rights,its right to enrich being the main one,only after that will iran agree to voluntarily limit some of these rights in return for removal of sanctions
"Iran's crimes are not excused by pointing to Israel's crimes..........and vice versa." ==> well that is exactly my point, thanks for putting my opinion under perspective. I do not understand the relevancy of reminding of the fact that Iran is a deadly dictatorship for its own citizen whereas Israel only kills Palestinians/Arabs (and Iranians too if it had the power to do so) in general whenever somebody dares criticize their worst abuses.
"Netanyahu's shrill and silly cries about Iran aren't a crime nor really a problem. his rhetoric about Iran is far more restrained than is the rhetoric coming from Iran's Ayatollahs and presidents concerning Israel."
Threatening another country with unilateral military action based on unproven elements is banned by the UN Charter, as far as I know. And they could prove to be quite problematic the day somehow the crying baby convinces his brass into enforcing his threats which could result in one of the most catastrophic conflicts the middle-east has witnessed in decades. Oh, any time you want to talk about what Sheldon Adelson said regarding the idea of nuking Tehran "to show US resolve", you might learn something new as well. Same thing for Moshe Dayan's Samson Option theoretically in effect since the 1970s within the IDF military doctrine, and their idea of nuking every western city they deem responsible of the fall if and when they fall to their Arab enemies. That will tell you volumes about their restraint compared to the worst Iranians. Next time an Iranian leader threatens not one but several major European cities of nuclear annihilation in the event they lose a war because of them, be my guest in coming back here and discussing it, I'll be available. Wackos are plenty on both sides when it comes to big talk.
Plus, restraint has become part of Iran's diplomatic game now, maybe you haven't been on twitter lately and missed the part when Rouhani openly wiped away the anti-Semitic rhetoric of the past administration and reminded Christine Pelosi that historically, Iran has never been a Holocaust denier, quite the contrary. Now that certainly does not mean I have any kind of love for the new mullahs in place, but the tide is turning, at least for now, on the media front. I mean, you cannot stick on the worst disastrous moments of the Ahmadinejad era for ever, let's discuss the present.
"further, any time you want to compare the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government since 1979 with the number of Iranians killed by the Iranian government since then, you might learn a thing or two"
So Israel has killed Palestinian by the thousands since 1948, and the IRI has killed an estimated 20,000 Iranians since 1979. What I see is a unrestrained dictatorship killing its own citizens big time, and an unrestrained expansionist military killing another people big time, but a bit slower. Close to 5,000 Palestinians got killed during the two intifadas combined alone. And it was even more proficient in rapid killing than the Iranian executioners on that particular occasion. Then what ?
Rouhani's rhetoric is an improvement, but Rouhani voice is only one of many and is not the definitive one....as he has no real power over Iran's foreign affairs and he answers to a master.
Iran has openly agreed in principle to halt uranium.enrichment upto the 20% mark and also agreed for more closer monitoring of its nuclear facilities. The reports in the media is that Iran will get little sanction relief in return, which means in future Iran will be made to compromise more in order to get further reliefs. Now if Isreali agenda is on the table laod down by the French then one should not expect a nation to surrender in face of hawkish demands. Ultimately, when Iran is being flexible and has already made their concessions clear than it is upto the Russians and the Chinese to realise that they have to stand besides Tehran and get a deal agreed, respecting Tehran's right to enrichment as well as Research and Development in the Nuclear Field. The Israeli mentality seems that they may attack Iran with a Nuclear Bomb and hence, they don't want Iran to have the capability to produce an emergency A bomb. The killings of scientists, student virus, faulty material, mockery of the NOT regime and an American Country which has sold itself out to the Israeli lobby who shamelessly calls for Iran to be Nuked.
I would rather be a Jew living in Israel, than an Iranian living in Iran. This is the difference between the two countries; Jews don't dream of leaving Israel to move to the U.S., and Jews in the U.S. don't fear for all the rights they would lose if they moved back to Israel.
Hahahahahha u are very funny and it still shows your lack of seeing the reality...most of jews live all over the world but not in Israel...u made my day...hahahaha thank u ;)
and I would rather be an Iranian living in Iran, than a Palestinian living in parts of UN-recognized Palestine occupied by Israel. Indeed, despite the ruthless and murderous nature of the Iranian regime for its opponents, I doubt anyone living under his or her roof anywhere in the country would have to live in fear of his property getting declared illegal overnight by a foreign occupying authority exercising forceful governance on his neighborhood, and get bulldozed the following day by a caterpillar truck escorted by heavily armed soldiers, and either wake up in the rubble of his own house when it happens, or die at the end of an assault-rifle if he dares resisting.
FYI, due to the worsening social situation and heightening of the cost of life for the average citizen, radicalization of its internal society through militarization of an already spartan State, and the currently governing far-right coalition giving a growing latitude for religious interventionism in day by day life that harms their democratic ideals even for secular Israeli Jews, every demographic report in 2013 for Israel shows alarming rates of a never seen before scale of emigration and brain-drain from the elites down to lover-class individuals getting out of he country when they can.
No need to be a complete, full-blown dictatorship for your country to become less and less livable as the days move forward. There are countless ways for a country to witness its once recognized dimensions of greatness fade away and ultimately disappear from the pages of its contemporary history, provided that enough conscience becomes extinct from the masses, probably distracted by a false sense of insecurity triggered by an artificially-maintained prospect of an alleged immediate threat posed by a non-existent external enemy that could supposedly strike first with nuclear weapons it doesn't even have yet even if it wanted to, being one example.
And the day one explains to me the connection between flexing a institutionally democratic governing structures at home for a selected ethnic group among one and the same population of citizens (in other terms, Apartheid style) gives a country the right to undertake state-sponsored criminal activities and countless military abuses abroad, killing foreign civilian scientists and scholars beyond its own territory, bombing parts of another bordering country already suffering the weight of a total military and economic blockade, occupying resource-rich territories of half of its neighbors to this day, counting nuclear blackmail as part of their military doctrine based on a 400 warhead-strong, undeclared, unacknowledged and unmonitored arsenal while preaching it to a non-nuclear armed country, would be a wonderful day to me.
Let's even assume the IRI is a fascist, even a Nazi regime. In which way would it justify the aforementioned Israeli crimes against humanity, and the stain they constitute on every of humanity's internationally recognized regulatory bodies on planet Earth, rendered utterly impotent and totally irrelevant in its very purpose, because an allied superpower member state exerting tremendous pressure on every single of their other main sponsors so that they never act on their resolutions to stop this criminal regime from acting ? In which way is it different from it being unable to act on Iran and its abuses on its OWN citizens ? or Syria for that matter ? let me answer that : NONE. criminal regimes, with different victims, and often killing their prey with the same methods, period. Internal nature of governance is void of any interest or relevance in such considerations.
If you commit murder no one cares about how you behave at home. Would you be the best person in the world, of the worst scum of the earth behind closed doors of your family home is indeed your business and won't ever change the judgment you'll receive for your wrongdoings outside. Seems like basic logic, and the way Rule of Law is supposed to work in every civilized Society to me.
Jews live in an out of Israel, but the point is they're not afraid to be deported to Israel -- unlike the Iranians living in the West; similarly, Jews in Israel don't dream of fleeing that country, unlike the millions of Iranians in Iran.
Say what you want about israeli treatment of Palestine but again I would much rather be a jew living in that country than an iranian in iran. Palestinians living in mainland Israel probably have more rights, freedoms than iranians in iran.
That's what makes Israel a superior country culturally than iran.
60 year old Israel is culturally superior to 2500 years old Iran just because of a non-representative and hated authority in power for 30 years or so in the latter, that's an amazing statement ! Where's Israel's Khayam ? where's Israel's Hafez, or Saadi ? where are their Mowlavi, Ferdowsi, Razi, Avicenna, or Shamloo ? So now, Political leadership = Culture gauge ==> Bad political leadership = low Culture. So the Germans have no culture anymore because Nazis dominated their political life for a few years. Thanks, I learned a new kind of rationale today.
Now, just for reminders : Palestinians have no rights nor freedom whatsoever in any parts of Israeli-controlled territories contrary to your belief, they are de-facto non-humans in the eyes of Israeli society, would it be legally or factually. They don't even have the right to remain where they live at any given time (when they are lucky enough to still barely have a roof above their heads), since they never know when their place will suddenly and arbitrarily be declared illegal and thus marked for demolition, often with them inside if they choose to stay, or see their property stolen and/or badly damaged overnight because they are unfortunate enough to live in a military training zone. A whole part of their population is parked into camps like animals with no running water nor electricity or fuel, and the few access they have depends on Israeli goodwill which regularly cuts it as they please to allow settlers to fill their swimming pools. Or light their garden parties. Mothers die giving birth stranded at checkpoints, ill elders and wounded infants die or risk their lives to painstakingly reach a hospital or a school or a friend's place because of dozens such checkpoints standing between them and their destination, willingly blocking them at every turn, every time, often abusing them in the process. Video proof filmed on-site are plenty all over the world for all to witness such infamy for decades now.
Of course the situation is similar to the average Iranian. It is indeed a renowned fact that Iranian mothers are stopped and forced to give birth in a car because Iranian troops prevent their access to a nearby hospital, Iranian elders die in the streets on their way to the doctor because Iranian police arrest them, take them out of their ambulance and drag them at the nearest station just because they feel like it. Iranians do have their houses reduced to rubble with half their families inside every now and then just because all of a sudden they are considered illegal occupants of their own home by the Iranian government, and then bulldozed to the ground by Iranian mechanized divisions. Also, we all know Iranians often see their neighborhoods getting cluster bombed and their occupants burned to the bone with white phosphorous, when they're not blown to pieces with thermobaric warheads falling in populated areas. Or their farmers and fishermen shot at with heavy caliber naval guns by the Iranian navy, when they dare venture too far off the Iranian coast where the good fish is. Even prisoners in Iran have the right to emergency care in Iranian jails in case you don't know (notwithstanding the totally illegitimate and intolerable nature of political persecution in Iran of course.)
Now haven't you packed your bag and registered as a Palestinian before heading right to wonderland Israel already ? You seem to believe you'd be so much better off than a regular citizen in Iran you'd probably enjoy your new and comfortable life there.
The Israel of today, is culturally superior to Iran or today -- because a Jew in Israel has far more human rights, freedoms and opportunities than does an Iranian in Iran. Truth is very simple and can be stated in one mere sentence.
Why do Iranians have to suffer for the Palestinian cause? Let the Arabs worry for them. Anon 3:52 AM, I agree the Palestinians have more rights in Israel than Iranians have in Iran. You haven't even the basic right in the clouths you choose to wear in the streets of Iran.Democracy and freedom starts from those little things that count like the choice of clouths you wear and your personal,political and religious beliefs.In Iran under these damn mullahs there are none of those basic rights.If you don't agree with the mullah regime they will put you in Evin or worse hang you.
just one sentence that doesn't mean much unfortunately. Like saying "1+1 = 3 because 1-5 = 17". Simple to state, easy to counter. Culturally speaking, would it be only through their spirit of academic resistance to the oppressive Iranian regime ruling the country with an iron fist today, no one can say the Iranian PEOPLE (as opposed to the governing few) in its entirety, has lost anything of its virtues. Stating that a country's culture is superior to another solely based on the rights they provide for their own citizens is a no-go, logically speaking. We may disagree on the definition of culture, granted.
Nonetheless, for Israel, being a free society (for Jews) technically makes them what they are : a country providing more rights and freedom to their own citizen (and only them) and not a iota more. Which is great of course. And a critical advantage Israelis have at home that Iranian don't have at theirs, I will be the first to shout it out loud to anyone asking. But still, it has nothing to do with culture or with other dimensions of Israel's illegal and rogue regional behavior, that's where I would beg to differ.
Yes, truth can be very simple and be stated in one mere sentence, but you will learn that there is no such thing as absolute truth, shades of grey are plenty specially in this troubled region, and only short-minded people would look at it through black & white glasses, with an Axis separating the Good on the one side and the Evil on the other. A famous American nut-job once used that to invade and destroy a whole middle-eastern country not long ago.
Truth is, the second you do not belong to the specific ethnoreligious group that in our case is being both Israeli and Jew, everything suddenly changes for your rights, and the examples are plenty to demonstrate, stated above already, so no need to repeat them. Israel murders and deports another people than its own, and does so en mass, in violation of every Human Rights standards. Go ask Ethiopians getting secretly sterilized and evicted from a country that once told them to come to it, or Israeli Arabs losing more rights by the month with the current government in place, and already not enjoying the same rights as "genuine" Israeli Jews anyway, or historical Bedouins getting persecuted and harassed and displaced systematically in pretty much the same fashion as the Palestinians.
Israel is accountable in that regard at least as much as Iran is towards its own people. In the case of Israel It is even more hypocritical from them to boast greatness and distinction for themselves while committing whatever abuses and crimes they want beyond their borders and to other people than their own, that's too easy a way out.
Slavery state Apartheid South Africa did exactly the same by respecting every right of the white Afrikaans and being technically a democracy for them, while despicably abusing the black natives in unspeakable ways and considering them subhumans. Being nice to their own certainly didn't make them culturally superior to any country in the world so far as humanity is concerned. The Nazi regime were nice to Nazi citizens and didn't persecute them either.
AnonymousNovember 10, 2013 at 4:07 PM
As a Palestinian in Israel today, you are deprived of the most basic forms of freedoms such as the right to own or rent a home, or the very right to move freely in Israel, when you happen to be a Palestinian, and you often die in the process. What kind of superior condition is that compared to being a non-political Iranian ? Clearly you haven't been in Iran, or occupied Palestinian Territories lately.
Anon 6:52 PM.....Clearly you don't know jack about me. Because not only I am Iranian but also lived in Iran before you were probably even born and continue to visit the country on a regular basis. Due to the akhoond terrorist regime Iran has more pressing problems at home instead of worrying about the "Palestinian" and other non-Iranains.Worry for your own people and country first before worrying about a bunch of aliens in some foreign land.
I never pretended, nor expressed any interest in learning more about you on a personal level, did I ? And what makes you think I am either younger than you or non-Iranian just because I do not fully adhere to your ideology or perceptions of the Middle-East ? Anyway, none of these attributes is needed for me to denounce the many crimes of both the oppressive, murderous and totalitarian nature of the IRI on one hand, and the highly bellicist, expansionist and criminal behavior of the Israeli regime abroad towards its neighbors or the Palestinians on their own soil, and the Apartheid-like nature of its society at home, on the other. The two positions are absolutely not incompatible (shades of grey, remember ?). And I do this in the way I find the most appropriate and factual, whether you like or not is none of my concerns and does not come into the equation. I state what I believe is right and I do the effort of illustrating every position I take in a lengthy way as much as I can every time I allow myself to intervene here. Consequently, as you may have noticed, my post aren't exactly an example of brevity compared to other participants. The same clearly cannot be said about you in that particular exchange.
Now on the subject of Iran helping Palestinians rather their own citizens : I don't recall saying anything tending to the contrary to what you said, and I took the care of making my stance clear towards the corrupt akhound regime besides the disagreements we had on connected subjects.
Plus, you do no have the right to lecture me in any way solely based on your age or experience you may or may not have on Iran. You go to Iran regularly ? good for you, at least you can go there and back, a lot of us are deprived of that right, a whole part of my family included. And for your information, and there is plenty of proof to illustrate that through my recent participation on this blog, I always stated that Iran's supposed concerns for the plight of the Palestinian is nor legitimate, appropriate or even honest, considering that :
1 - The only political entities and groups they support and finance are the most backwards and obscurantist representatives of the Palestinian political spectrum such as Hamas and other Jihadist groups.
2 - As you rightfully said, there are countless more pressing issues going on at home and worsening as we speak than throwing billions to foreign allies, would it be inflation, massive unemployment, a shrinking civilian industry, significant trade deficit and so on, the list goes on and on. And this is only to speak about the economy, political freedom is another beast altogether and I doubt I will teach anyone anything new on the blog, you included...
Some "superior culture" the zionist entity has where buses are racially segregated 60 years after Montgomery and Rosa Parks, where African people are depicted as dancing, banana-eating baboons and Interior Minister Eli Yishai said "this country belongs to us, to the white man”.
For my part I'd say to hell with both abuses since they unfortunatly both exist ! Ultra orthodox parties within the ruling coalition in Israel have been pushing hard for the same kind of segregation in their country lately, which has even prompted an outcry from former Secretery of State Hilary Clinton despite her love for the Jewish State. A practice than went on for close to 20 years in Israel anyway, and only quite recenlty legally ended, a good step forward, in 2011. So the shadow of phallocracy is ever-present at varying degrees, and so in many places of the middle-east.... Nonetheless Palestinian men and women alike don't seem to enjoy such progressist amendments to the Rule of Law that applies to them :-( Check out the Haredim bus lines that existed fromt the late 90s to 2011, you might be surprised.
But the islamo fascist occupation discriminates against the very Iranian people that it claims to represent.Why this bigotry and ignorance towards women and religious minorities?
Why are you tying up Iran's human rights problems with a foreign country like Israel? No real Iranian would think of doing such a thing.I suspect you are either from Pakistan,Lebanon or some other place.
Can the hasbara agents and neocons with room temperature IQ levels on this site please explain how Iran has lied and deceived the west? Or are you folks parrots and regurgitate what you are told by Bibi and his ilk?
Thanks a lot for such appreciation ! Bias is the natural and prime implication of Ideology, the enemy of objectivity, and by definition a killer of factual and/or rational/logical perceptions, in my opinion. Hence my attempts to avoid it at all costs whenever I try to put events into perspective, no matter the subject, political of not.
It would be hilarious if Iranians over-haggle their way to no deal, followed next week by a near unanimous Congressional bill imposing even more crippling sanctions on Iran and preventing the President from lifting them. Iranians' tendency to lie, in this case to delude themselves that they have any power or leverage or authority, hurts themselves ultimately.
ReplyDeleteYou forget that US is only one of the 5+1 members. Any further unilateral sanction by US will complicate the matter and may even bring disunity to the group to a point where some members may find justification in relaxing the sanction. A tit-for -tat response by IRI cannot be ruled out. They could easily double the number of centrifuges in Fordo underground complex and stop converting their 20% enriched stockpile to fuel rods.
DeleteKeep lying to yourself, as you enjoy the freedom, rights and superiority of the U.S., where you live.
DeleteAnonymousNovember 9, 2013 at 11:56 AM,
DeleteI wouldn't call it "hilarious", but rather "sad" or "disastrous" for the ordinary Iranian people already suffering tremendously both because of their own government's irresponsibility, selfishness and economic mismanagement, AND the existing unfair and illegal, non-internally recognized and unilateral sanctions regime affecting them and not a single one of the Arazadeh and/or their Akhound parents speeding with American cars in northern Tehran (or in vacation in Europe/USA).
But considering your style, I feel that a total failure of the ongoing negotiations and an resulting even greater ruin of the country for generations to come would prove joyful to you ! "hilarious" would be an odd word to describe such an outcome for anyone living and/or caring about Iran as a country (and not as a regime).
That would almost make me believe you'd be sad if a deal ultimately gets clinched at the last minute no matter how !!
"reader" might or might not live in Iran or the US, that doesn't make his/her analysis that flawed or far from reality.
-A
Wow it looks like it happened . . .
Deletereader November 9, 2013 at 1:09 PM
DeleteWell said
Nuclearyahoo is extremly worried, shaking in fear over what may come - an agreement that leads to Iran's retainment of the Nuclear Fuel Cycle in conjunction with a comprehensive inspection routine, by the IAEA, in a new framework agreed upon by P5+1 and Iran.
ReplyDeleteIran will escape military aggression against its facilites which will remain intact.
The West will be pleased and Iran get to keep its lawful right to enrich Uranium for peaceful purposes.
Eventually Iran stands to gain the most out of all concerned parties, and Iran will be standing as the Winner vis-a-vis the Zionist entity.
silly and baseless comment. Iran is at the negotiating table because of Iran's lies, deceits and non-compliance..... and Iran isn't going to get any deal that doesn't preclude Iran from operating ANY nuclear facilities not fully inspected and controlled by the IAEA and the UN Security Council.
Deletesanctions are going to remain in place and the Iranian economy will be throttled until Iran submits to international oversite.
Agreed, Iranians are paying the price for a stubborn and corrupt elite doing everything within its power to fortify its future holding the reigns of the oil-rich country as long as they can, that is entirely right and I couldn't agree more.
DeleteBut what about Bibi's growing fury, fuming at any real prospect for that crisis to eventually end ? what's in it for him of so displeasing, that's an interesting question to dig, besides what we already know of the Iranian regime. The falling popularity of the man and the image of his country in the eyes of the average Iranian (would he be pro-regime, neutral or opponent nowadays) would be one way of gauging the reality perceived behind the supposedly legitimate existential concerns Mr. Netanyahu has so far so brilliantly used against Iran, thanks to his mate Ahmadinejad doing the anti-Semite work his daily business for 8 years.
He will have to accept that one day the world will turn its eyes on his own unpunished and ongoing abuses on the land he governs, no matter the final outcomes of these negotiations in Geneva or distant future sessions, he would gain by sitting back, relaxing, distancing from his obsession with the Iranian threat and starting thinking about the many walls (sarcasm intended here) there are between him and a negotiated, decent peace deal with he Palestinians. Oh wait, he has never been elected for that nor has ever willed it, he is just another Israeli fascist using the 1940s holocaust to do perform smaller-scale organized murder in modern times on a regular basis, Gaza or Jenine style. And soon the West Bank too, with a record number of high-rise buildings marked for demolition two days ago. Life is going to become many-folds funnier in the weeks and months to come for happy Palestinians. Oh but that's alright because Iran is a dictatorship so that's a non-issue, right ?
-A
dear A-
DeleteIran's crimes are not excused by pointing to Israel's crimes..........and vice versa.
and by the way, Netanyahu's shrill and silly cries about Iran aren't a crime nor really a problem. his rhetoric about Iran is far more restrained than is the rhetoric coming from Iran's Ayatollahs and presidents concerning Israel.
further, any time you want to compare the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government since 1979 with the number of Iranians killed by the Iranian government since then, you might learn a thing or two
Anonymous November 9, 2013 at 2:33 PM
DeleteYou do not know what you are talking about,iran is in full compliance with its npt obligations,its nuclear sites are inspected and monitored and the iaea has certified that there has been no diversion of nuclear material,the idea that iran would allow these sites to be controlled by the iaea or the security council is utterly laughable and only shows your utter ignorance of the whole issue.Before there can be any deal the west will have to acknowledge irans nuclear rights,its right to enrich being the main one,only after that will iran agree to voluntarily limit some of these rights in return for removal of sanctions
AnonymousNovember 9, 2013 at 8:32 PM,
Delete"Iran's crimes are not excused by pointing to Israel's crimes..........and vice versa."
==> well that is exactly my point, thanks for putting my opinion under perspective. I do not understand the relevancy of reminding of the fact that Iran is a deadly dictatorship for its own citizen whereas Israel only kills Palestinians/Arabs (and Iranians too if it had the power to do so) in general whenever somebody dares criticize their worst abuses.
"Netanyahu's shrill and silly cries about Iran aren't a crime nor really a problem. his rhetoric about Iran is far more restrained than is the rhetoric coming from Iran's Ayatollahs and presidents concerning Israel."
Threatening another country with unilateral military action based on unproven elements is banned by the UN Charter, as far as I know. And they could prove to be quite problematic the day somehow the crying baby convinces his brass into enforcing his threats which could result in one of the most catastrophic conflicts the middle-east has witnessed in decades. Oh, any time you want to talk about what Sheldon Adelson said regarding the idea of nuking Tehran "to show US resolve", you might learn something new as well. Same thing for Moshe Dayan's Samson Option theoretically in effect since the 1970s within the IDF military doctrine, and their idea of nuking every western city they deem responsible of the fall if and when they fall to their Arab enemies. That will tell you volumes about their restraint compared to the worst Iranians. Next time an Iranian leader threatens not one but several major European cities of nuclear annihilation in the event they lose a war because of them, be my guest in coming back here and discussing it, I'll be available. Wackos are plenty on both sides when it comes to big talk.
Plus, restraint has become part of Iran's diplomatic game now, maybe you haven't been on twitter lately and missed the part when Rouhani openly wiped away the anti-Semitic rhetoric of the past administration and reminded Christine Pelosi that historically, Iran has never been a Holocaust denier, quite the contrary. Now that certainly does not mean I have any kind of love for the new mullahs in place, but the tide is turning, at least for now, on the media front. I mean, you cannot stick on the worst disastrous moments of the Ahmadinejad era for ever, let's discuss the present.
"further, any time you want to compare the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli government since 1979 with the number of Iranians killed by the Iranian government since then, you might learn a thing or two"
So Israel has killed Palestinian by the thousands since 1948, and the IRI has killed an estimated 20,000 Iranians since 1979. What I see is a unrestrained dictatorship killing its own citizens big time, and an unrestrained expansionist military killing another people big time, but a bit slower. Close to 5,000 Palestinians got killed during the two intifadas combined alone. And it was even more proficient in rapid killing than the Iranian executioners on that particular occasion. Then what ?
-A
Rouhani's rhetoric is an improvement, but Rouhani voice is only one of many and is not the definitive one....as he has no real power over Iran's foreign affairs and he answers to a master.
DeleteIran has openly agreed in principle to halt uranium.enrichment upto the 20% mark and also agreed for more closer monitoring of its nuclear facilities. The reports in the media is that Iran will get little sanction relief in return, which means in future Iran will be made to compromise more in order to get further reliefs. Now if Isreali agenda is on the table laod down by the French then one should not expect a nation to surrender in face of hawkish demands. Ultimately, when Iran is being flexible and has already made their concessions clear than it is upto the Russians and the Chinese to realise that they have to stand besides Tehran and get a deal agreed, respecting Tehran's right to enrichment as well as Research and Development in the Nuclear Field. The Israeli mentality seems that they may attack Iran with a Nuclear Bomb and hence, they don't want Iran to have the capability to produce an emergency A bomb. The killings of scientists, student virus, faulty material, mockery of the NOT regime and an American Country which has sold itself out to the Israeli lobby who shamelessly calls for Iran to be Nuked.
ReplyDeleteI would rather be a Jew living in Israel, than an Iranian living in Iran. This is the difference between the two countries; Jews don't dream of leaving Israel to move to the U.S., and Jews in the U.S. don't fear for all the rights they would lose if they moved back to Israel.
DeleteHahahahahha u are very funny and it still shows your lack of seeing the reality...most of jews live all over the world but not in Israel...u made my day...hahahaha thank u ;)
DeleteAnonymousNovember 9, 2013 at 3:07 PM,
Deleteand I would rather be an Iranian living in Iran, than a Palestinian living in parts of UN-recognized Palestine occupied by Israel. Indeed, despite the ruthless and murderous nature of the Iranian regime for its opponents, I doubt anyone living under his or her roof anywhere in the country would have to live in fear of his property getting declared illegal overnight by a foreign occupying authority exercising forceful governance on his neighborhood, and get bulldozed the following day by a caterpillar truck escorted by heavily armed soldiers, and either wake up in the rubble of his own house when it happens, or die at the end of an assault-rifle if he dares resisting.
FYI, due to the worsening social situation and heightening of the cost of life for the average citizen, radicalization of its internal society through militarization of an already spartan State, and the currently governing far-right coalition giving a growing latitude for religious interventionism in day by day life that harms their democratic ideals even for secular Israeli Jews, every demographic report in 2013 for Israel shows alarming rates of a never seen before scale of emigration and brain-drain from the elites down to lover-class individuals getting out of he country when they can.
No need to be a complete, full-blown dictatorship for your country to become less and less livable as the days move forward. There are countless ways for a country to witness its once recognized dimensions of greatness fade away and ultimately disappear from the pages of its contemporary history, provided that enough conscience becomes extinct from the masses, probably distracted by a false sense of insecurity triggered by an artificially-maintained prospect of an alleged immediate threat posed by a non-existent external enemy that could supposedly strike first with nuclear weapons it doesn't even have yet even if it wanted to, being one example.
And the day one explains to me the connection between flexing a institutionally democratic governing structures at home for a selected ethnic group among one and the same population of citizens (in other terms, Apartheid style) gives a country the right to undertake state-sponsored criminal activities and countless military abuses abroad, killing foreign civilian scientists and scholars beyond its own territory, bombing parts of another bordering country already suffering the weight of a total military and economic blockade, occupying resource-rich territories of half of its neighbors to this day, counting nuclear blackmail as part of their military doctrine based on a 400 warhead-strong, undeclared, unacknowledged and unmonitored arsenal while preaching it to a non-nuclear armed country, would be a wonderful day to me.
Let's even assume the IRI is a fascist, even a Nazi regime. In which way would it justify the aforementioned Israeli crimes against humanity, and the stain they constitute on every of humanity's internationally recognized regulatory bodies on planet Earth, rendered utterly impotent and totally irrelevant in its very purpose, because an allied superpower member state exerting tremendous pressure on every single of their other main sponsors so that they never act on their resolutions to stop this criminal regime from acting ? In which way is it different from it being unable to act on Iran and its abuses on its OWN citizens ? or Syria for that matter ? let me answer that : NONE. criminal regimes, with different victims, and often killing their prey with the same methods, period. Internal nature of governance is void of any interest or relevance in such considerations.
If you commit murder no one cares about how you behave at home. Would you be the best person in the world, of the worst scum of the earth behind closed doors of your family home is indeed your business and won't ever change the judgment you'll receive for your wrongdoings outside. Seems like basic logic, and the way Rule of Law is supposed to work in every civilized Society to me.
-A
Jews live in an out of Israel, but the point is they're not afraid to be deported to Israel -- unlike the Iranians living in the West; similarly, Jews in Israel don't dream of fleeing that country, unlike the millions of Iranians in Iran.
Delete-A
DeleteWhere, have you been hidden during the past year ??
A-F
Say what you want about israeli treatment of Palestine but again I would much rather be a jew living in that country than an iranian in iran. Palestinians living in mainland Israel probably have more rights, freedoms than iranians in iran.
DeleteThat's what makes Israel a superior country culturally than iran.
I never left, I just started signing my posts !
Delete-A
AnonymousNovember 10, 2013 at 3:52 AM,
DeleteWOW at your Chutzpah.
60 year old Israel is culturally superior to 2500 years old Iran just because of a non-representative and hated authority in power for 30 years or so in the latter, that's an amazing statement ! Where's Israel's Khayam ? where's Israel's Hafez, or Saadi ? where are their Mowlavi, Ferdowsi, Razi, Avicenna, or Shamloo ? So now, Political leadership = Culture gauge ==> Bad political leadership = low Culture. So the Germans have no culture anymore because Nazis dominated their political life for a few years. Thanks, I learned a new kind of rationale today.
Now, just for reminders : Palestinians have no rights nor freedom whatsoever in any parts of Israeli-controlled territories contrary to your belief, they are de-facto non-humans in the eyes of Israeli society, would it be legally or factually. They don't even have the right to remain where they live at any given time (when they are lucky enough to still barely have a roof above their heads), since they never know when their place will suddenly and arbitrarily be declared illegal and thus marked for demolition, often with them inside if they choose to stay, or see their property stolen and/or badly damaged overnight because they are unfortunate enough to live in a military training zone. A whole part of their population is parked into camps like animals with no running water nor electricity or fuel, and the few access they have depends on Israeli goodwill which regularly cuts it as they please to allow settlers to fill their swimming pools. Or light their garden parties. Mothers die giving birth stranded at checkpoints, ill elders and wounded infants die or risk their lives to
painstakingly reach a hospital or a school or a friend's place because of dozens such checkpoints standing between them and their destination, willingly blocking them at every turn, every time, often abusing them in the process. Video proof filmed on-site are plenty all over the world for all to witness such infamy for decades now.
Of course the situation is similar to the average Iranian. It is indeed a renowned fact that Iranian mothers are stopped and forced to give birth in a car because Iranian troops prevent their access to a nearby hospital, Iranian elders die in the streets on their way to the doctor because Iranian police arrest them, take them out of their ambulance and drag them at the nearest station just because they feel like it. Iranians do have their houses reduced to rubble with half their families inside every now and then just because all of a sudden they are considered illegal occupants of their own home by the Iranian government, and then bulldozed to the ground by Iranian mechanized divisions. Also, we all know Iranians often see their neighborhoods getting cluster bombed and their occupants burned to the bone with white phosphorous, when they're not blown to pieces with thermobaric warheads falling in populated areas. Or their farmers and fishermen shot at with heavy caliber naval guns by the Iranian navy, when they dare venture too far off the Iranian coast where the good fish is. Even prisoners in Iran have the right to emergency care in Iranian jails in case you don't know (notwithstanding the totally illegitimate and intolerable nature of political persecution in Iran of course.)
Now haven't you packed your bag and registered as a Palestinian before heading right to wonderland Israel already ? You seem to believe you'd be so much better off than a regular citizen in Iran you'd probably enjoy your new and comfortable life there.
-A
The Israel of today, is culturally superior to Iran or today -- because a Jew in Israel has far more human rights, freedoms and opportunities than does an Iranian in Iran. Truth is very simple and can be stated in one mere sentence.
DeleteWhy do Iranians have to suffer for the Palestinian cause? Let the Arabs worry for them. Anon 3:52 AM, I agree the Palestinians have more rights in Israel than Iranians have in Iran. You haven't even the basic right in the clouths you choose to wear in the streets of Iran.Democracy and freedom starts from those little things that count like the choice of clouths you wear and your personal,political and religious beliefs.In Iran under these damn mullahs there are none of those basic rights.If you don't agree with the mullah regime they will put you in Evin or worse hang you.
DeleteAnonymousNovember 10, 2013 at 3:53 PM
Deletejust one sentence that doesn't mean much unfortunately. Like saying "1+1 = 3 because 1-5 = 17". Simple to state, easy to counter. Culturally speaking, would it be only through their spirit of academic resistance to the oppressive Iranian regime ruling the country with an iron fist today, no one can say the Iranian PEOPLE (as opposed to the governing few) in its entirety, has lost anything of its virtues. Stating that a country's culture is superior to another solely based on the rights they provide for their own citizens is a no-go, logically speaking. We may disagree on the definition of culture, granted.
Nonetheless, for Israel, being a free society (for Jews) technically makes them what they are : a country providing more rights and freedom to their own citizen (and only them) and not a iota more. Which is great of course. And a critical advantage Israelis have at home that Iranian don't have at theirs, I will be the first to shout it out loud to anyone asking. But still, it has nothing to do with culture or with other dimensions of Israel's illegal and rogue regional behavior, that's where I would beg to differ.
Yes, truth can be very simple and be stated in one mere sentence, but you will learn that there is no such thing as absolute truth, shades of grey are plenty specially in this troubled region, and only short-minded people would look at it through black & white glasses, with an Axis separating the Good on the one side and the Evil on the other. A famous American nut-job once used that to invade and destroy a whole middle-eastern country not long ago.
Truth is, the second you do not belong to the specific ethnoreligious group that in our case is being both Israeli and Jew, everything suddenly changes for your rights, and the examples are plenty to demonstrate, stated above already, so no need to repeat them. Israel murders and deports another people than its own, and does so en mass, in violation of every Human Rights standards. Go ask Ethiopians getting secretly sterilized and evicted from a country that once told them to come to it, or Israeli Arabs losing more rights by the month with the current government in place, and already not enjoying the same rights as "genuine" Israeli Jews anyway, or historical Bedouins getting persecuted and harassed and displaced systematically in pretty much the same fashion as the Palestinians.
Israel is accountable in that regard at least as much as Iran is towards its own people. In the case of Israel It is even more hypocritical from them to boast greatness and distinction for themselves while committing whatever abuses and crimes they want beyond their borders and to other people than their own, that's too easy a way out.
Slavery state Apartheid South Africa did exactly the same by respecting every right of the white Afrikaans and being technically a democracy for them, while despicably abusing the black natives in unspeakable ways and considering them subhumans. Being nice to their own certainly didn't make them culturally superior to any country in the world so far as humanity is concerned. The Nazi regime were nice to Nazi citizens and didn't persecute them either.
AnonymousNovember 10, 2013 at 4:07 PM
As a Palestinian in Israel today, you are deprived of the most basic forms of freedoms such as the right to own or rent a home, or the very right to move freely in Israel, when you happen to be a Palestinian, and you often die in the process. What kind of superior condition is that compared to being a non-political Iranian ? Clearly you haven't been in Iran, or occupied Palestinian Territories lately.
Anon 6:52 PM.....Clearly you don't know jack about me. Because not only I am Iranian but also lived in Iran before you were probably even born and continue to visit the country on a regular basis. Due to the akhoond terrorist regime Iran has more pressing problems at home instead of worrying about the "Palestinian" and other non-Iranains.Worry for your own people and country first before worrying about a bunch of aliens in some foreign land.
DeleteAnonymousNovember 11, 2013 at 3:09 PM,
DeleteI never pretended, nor expressed any interest in learning more about you on a personal level, did I ? And what makes you think I am either younger than you or non-Iranian just because I do not fully adhere to your ideology or perceptions of the Middle-East ? Anyway, none of these attributes is needed for me to denounce the many crimes of both the oppressive, murderous and totalitarian nature of the IRI on one hand, and the highly bellicist, expansionist and criminal behavior of the Israeli regime abroad towards its neighbors or the Palestinians on their own soil, and the Apartheid-like nature of its society at home, on the other. The two positions are absolutely not incompatible (shades of grey, remember ?). And I do this in the way I find the most appropriate and factual, whether you like or not is none of my concerns and does not come into the equation. I state what I believe is right and I do the effort of illustrating every position I take in a lengthy way as much as I can every time I allow myself to intervene here. Consequently, as you may have noticed, my post aren't exactly an example of brevity compared to other participants. The same clearly cannot be said about you in that particular exchange.
Now on the subject of Iran helping Palestinians rather their own citizens : I don't recall saying anything tending to the contrary to what you said, and I took the care of making my stance clear towards the corrupt akhound regime besides the disagreements we had on connected subjects.
Plus, you do no have the right to lecture me in any way solely based on your age or experience you may or may not have on Iran. You go to Iran regularly ? good for you, at least you can go there and back, a lot of us are deprived of that right, a whole part of my family included. And for your information, and there is plenty of proof to illustrate that through my recent participation on this blog, I always stated that Iran's supposed concerns for the plight of the Palestinian is nor legitimate, appropriate or even honest, considering that :
1 - The only political entities and groups they support and finance are the most backwards and obscurantist representatives of the Palestinian political spectrum such as Hamas and other Jihadist groups.
2 - As you rightfully said, there are countless more pressing issues going on at home and worsening as we speak than throwing billions to foreign allies, would it be inflation, massive unemployment, a shrinking civilian industry, significant trade deficit and so on, the list goes on and on. And this is only to speak about the economy, political freedom is another beast altogether and I doubt I will teach anyone anything new on the blog, you included...
Respectfully,
-A
Some "superior culture" the zionist entity has where buses are racially segregated 60 years after Montgomery and Rosa Parks, where African people are depicted as dancing, banana-eating baboons and Interior Minister Eli Yishai said "this country belongs to us, to the white man”.
DeleteAnon 5:57 PM.....You forgot that in Iran women must sit on back of buses. Isn't that "segregated" or not?
DeleteFor my part I'd say to hell with both abuses since they unfortunatly both exist ! Ultra orthodox parties within the ruling coalition in Israel have been pushing hard for the same kind of segregation in their country lately, which has even prompted an outcry from former Secretery of State Hilary Clinton despite her love for the Jewish State. A practice than went on for close to 20 years in Israel anyway, and only quite recenlty legally ended, a good step forward, in 2011. So the shadow of phallocracy is ever-present at varying degrees, and so in many places of the middle-east.... Nonetheless Palestinian men and women alike don't seem to enjoy such progressist amendments to the Rule of Law that applies to them :-( Check out the Haredim bus lines that existed fromt the late 90s to 2011, you might be surprised.
DeleteAnon 1:35 PM, weak. You forgot that Iran does not have institutionalised, racial discrimination.
DeleteAnon 6:27 AM...Pathetic. Iran under the islamic fascists has institutionalised discrimination against women and religious minorities.
DeleteNo,instead it has institutionalised bigots and women oppressors.
DeleteIn other words, you can not deny that the zionist occupation does have racial discrimination, while Iran does not.
DeleteBut the islamo fascist occupation discriminates against the very Iranian people that it claims to represent.Why this bigotry and ignorance towards women and religious minorities?
DeleteSo according to zionist logic, because someone else commits oppression, that makes it okay when zionists do the same.
DeleteBut this is not "zionist logic" it is Iranian fact that the islamic terrorist regime oppressers Iranian nation.
DeleteEven so, that does not change the fact that the zionist occupation also commits oppression. Two wrongs don't make a right.
DeleteWhy are you tying up Iran's human rights problems with a foreign country like Israel? No real Iranian
Deletewould think of doing such a thing.I suspect you are either from Pakistan,Lebanon or some other place.
Can the hasbara agents and neocons with room temperature IQ levels on this site please explain how Iran has lied and deceived the west? Or are you folks parrots and regurgitate what you are told by Bibi and his ilk?
ReplyDeleteExactly, they are parrots of the international laughing stock, nutty nutanyahoo.
DeleteA
ReplyDeleteThank you for your very insightful posts. The only ones here worth reading. Objective and free of any ideological / emotional views.
Thanks a lot for such appreciation ! Bias is the natural and prime implication of Ideology, the enemy of objectivity, and by definition a killer of factual and/or rational/logical perceptions, in my opinion. Hence my attempts to avoid it at all costs whenever I try to put events into perspective, no matter the subject, political of not.
Delete-A